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Arthur Goodfriend Papers

Oral History Transcription:

Tape XII, Side B: September 5, 1997

NOTE: AG = Arthur Goodfriend; JY = Jason Yamashita; ST = Shari Tamashiro

AG:

...out of this oral history that I do believe that education is so important because it does predetermine the behavior of people that leads them into conflict. And then a period will occur after that too late to avoid the conflict, where in my own case I realized, well god, what a madman I was at that time. How obsessed I was with the need for revenge and for victory. Whereas today I see it in a totally different way. And today I...pick up that book on how to shoot the U.S. army rifle -- this is the way you aim your rifle, this is the way you handle your gun, this is the way you manage your trigger-squeeze, this is the relationship of the of the...of the way you handle this weapon that will lead the bullet into the heart or into some other vulnerable point in the target. And the target is some other human being. I can't believe that I should have been an agent of such of such an activity. Then I have to repeat: Yes, I did it and I cannot retreat from that nor would I. Probably would happen again if we were suddenly attacked by the Martians coming down, and so on. [ ], get um. But today, I see the thing in a totally different context and I can hardly believe that human beings can work themselves up into such a frenzy that killing becomes the entire purpose of your existence. And all of the economy of the country - then the printing presses, the photography, the distribution system - all of that converges on the need, on the desire to put something out that will enable us to be better killers then the enemy is. So I hope I'm making my point. I justify what I did then. I would not...I would not, I don't apologize for it. On the other hand, I realize today...I get back now to what we just were talking about in the safari...Animals don't do this to each other. Only human beings do this to each other. We are the only people that kill our own kind. Lions do not kill lions. Lions will kill a giraffe because they're hungry and it's part of the food chain. But they will not kill a lion. A lion will not kill a giraffe or a zebra because he hates the zebra. It's simply a natural part of human, of animal existence that it must nourish itself. Only we, human beings, as a result of our, of two things as of something within our human nature and that's something within our educational system that turns us into the the predators, the killers, the people with the potential for war that we have. And then we use all of our science, we use our technology, we use our enormous manufacturing abilities, we use all of the brilliance that we have as businessmen and as engineers...we bring all that together for no purpose other than to compete with our fellow man and in its certain climactic periods of history to fight our fellow man and to kill him so as to of so as to emerge as as we are today, let us say, a super-power. Just think of for the meaning of the word we apply to ourselves, the United States. Now the Soviet Union is gone. We are the one remaining super-power. What does that say about us when we designate ourselves as a super...Super over what? What are we super over? And then how do we use our power? What is the purpose of our power? Now obviously, if you ask President Clinton what the purpose was, well, he would say, Well, look we're in Bosnia for peace. We are using American influence always for peace. But actually the reality right now, just according to the newspapers this morning...The question is do we sell do we sell sophisticated American planes to Chile in South America? Immediately the Argentine people say, Well, if you're going to sell your planes to Chile, then you better sell your planes to us. And we become a part of a new mechanism that leads South American, which has avoided this kind of rivalry and this kind of tension. Now the United States, by selling sophisticated weaponry to one country, will upset the neighboring country and start a new chain of events that lead to, once again lead to an emphasis on on power and on the power of a super-power to influence. Now why do we do this? I say we do this for two reasons. There's something within us as human beings, but then compounding that is an educational system that elevates competition, elevates technology, elevates science over those things that would that would bring these tendencies into into better control and into better management. And those things that we have called upon in the past and which have not succeeded, primarily religion, is less effective. It never worked for...you have so many religions. You have Catholicism, Protestantism, the Jewish religion, the Hebraic religion. You have all these great religions, but you had war. And many of the wars have been religious wars. So we do not have anything within ourselves to control these impulses, which I think, in an atomic age, present a threat that makes even more important the need for an educational process that subdues this rather than than elevates it. This is moving over into preaching. I hope it isn't preaching. It becomes what I really do believe to be the whole purpose of the this oral history. And that is to somehow, in responding to your question, how I feel now about about these war things that I did, it's something that we human beings simply have to face up to. That we have to find a way to abate these tendencies that so destructive. And the methods we've had in the past have not succeeded. The question now is can we can we succeed by by introducing into into education a morality, an ethic, an element of reason based on knowledge...

ST:

Compassion, empathy.

AG:

That's right. Yeah. You say compassion and empathy. Yeah. It's it should be compassion rather than competition; it should be coordination; it should be cooperation. Cooperation would be a key word. We should be cooperating with other people rather than competing with them.

ST:

You mentioned, uh, anger and the urge to win and to beat the enemy, but it seemed like it was aimed more at the Japanese than Germany. Was it, was there that rage because of the whole, I guess, incident of Pearl Harbor or was it in equal parts to defeat Germany and to defeat Japan, or was it aimed more at Japan?

AG:

My recollection of it all would be that, the logic of it would be that it was Pearl Harbor. The United States was obviously becoming involved in the war because we were, it was quite clear to the majority of Americans that Hitler and Nazism, Fascism were inimical. This represented a great threat to the United States. If Hitler defeated France. He did defeat France. But if he defeated Britain and Russia then we would be next on his list. So we were threatened by Hitler. But that was being held in abeyance because we could we could have lend lease and we could have other means of helping Britain without getting into war. But then what happened was that Japan made a mistake of attacking the United States. And that centered American anger on Japan and made Japan the the natural target of our anger. But then came the judgment of the people who were running the show. Roosevelt, General Marshall, and the other people who were running the show who said, Yes, Japan, we are going to get Japan because Japan has brought us into the war. But the best way we can get to Japan is first to defeat Hitler. Because if Hitler wins in Europe, then there's no way that we're ever going to able to defeat Japan. So we have to, first of all, get, win victory in Europe and then we can turn over...And that's exactly and that's what happened. And I think in retrospect it was very, very wise, very wise strategy. Because if France had fallen, if Britain fell then the whole thing...we'd had been alone in dealing with the combination of Nazi Germany and Japan. So I think the strategy worked out, worked out successfully. But I always get back to my basic theme. And this is that all of this all of these things happened because of failure of human beings to deal with the tensions and the threats and the behavior of human beings that are unchecked, are...well, I put it in another way, that in a way are fomented, are supercharged by national policies and behavior. Behaviors that lead to situations that lead to war. And this could happed again and again because nothing really seems to be stopping it. If you really think of what's happening in the school systems today, the United States must do something about education because we must become more competitive. That word competitive comes in. President Bush called himself the education president. The United States is at risk. We our the we must not let these other countries get ahead of us. We have to have more scientists. That's where the emphasis on math comes in. Math, math, math, math, math. Every child, regardless. Take a hundred children. A hundred children must become mathematicians. Well, it's not natural. It just ain't going to happen. There may be twenty or twenty-seven of those kids that are born mathematicians. But the others aren't mathematicians. So I conspicuously, I know now at the end of ninety years of my life, I know that I never was intended to be a mathematician. It, my ability would be to sketch the animals. It wouldn't be to count them. I couldn't count the animals. I couldn't add up the numbers. But I can, that's where my strength would be. Why try to turn me into a mathematician? Why try to turn you into into something that you don't want to be, but which the nation says you have to be? Do you follow...do you follow the argument, Jason...do you see what I'm driving at? I think I've carried to a point where it almost seems like a mania but it's a very strongly felt feeling because of the amount of work that's gone into examining the human predicament.

ST:

I feel a lot of sadness though just because on the mainland it seems to be a lot people have not found forgiveness or found any way of coping with Pearl Harbor, with the war. And they still hold on to that bitterness and that hatred and that anger.

AG:

You feel that, by the way?

ST:

I have come across it. Yeah. Where there is a lot of anger at, you know, the attack and things like that. So it's almost like they refuse to let go.

AG:

Just look at this. This is the this is the first thing in this in this book. This is The New York Times of Monday, December the 8th, 1941. "Japan Bores on US and Britain - Makes Sudden Attack on Hawaii. Heavy Fighting At Sea Reported." Can you imagine the, what that did to the readership? And that was right across the whole country.

ST:

Well it's the day of infamy, right?

AG:

Yeah. The day of infamy, and so on. So, there again you have the the human condition. That...But on the other hand I think that there's something to be said, to me, and you can, you would know better than I...Today, especially here in Hawaii, if you go out to the Arizona, if you go out to Pearl Harbor the majority of the people going out there are Japanese tourists. It's very interesting to me that the people are brought out there and treated with great courtesy. There is...no evidence of the, of anger and of hatred that existed on a day like that. Today, today the antagonism to the Japanese will occur on economic grounds, on business. Why are they selling all these Toyotas and Hondas in the United States and we're not allowed to sell our Fords and our Cadillac's? In today's news the United States is taking measures against Japanese shipping. Because the Japanese are laying fines or demanding pay...forcing Americans to pay duties coming into Japanese ports. So the United States reciprocates by saying that when your ships come into Hawaii, into San Francisco, and into L.A. you're going to have to be...you charge us duties, we're going to charge you duties. So you see, again you have this a residual rivalry that derives from economic, monetary, financial causes. The bloody aspects of the thing have gone away. Now it's money; now it's dollars; now it's profits, and so on.

ST:

How about we go through the journal? Move a little closer.

AG:

Well here again you have something that begins with the announcement of the...

ST:

What is this?

AG:

This is a shoulder patch of the United States Army as of before we, of the general staff. So I was going over as a member of the general staff.

ST:

What is that, lightning breaking a chain?

AG:

Yeah. Right. That was the symbolism - a chain being broken by the lightning power of the American of the American...So here's, this is called Ticket to Invasion. And here actually is the ticket that I was provided sending me from Washington D.C. to London. And here again I want to make the point that I'm sure that thousands and thousands of American soldiers were given, officers like myself were given tickets to fly over. If you were in an infantry division you went over on a ship and you didn't get anything. That you just got orders and off you went. But many of us on special missions were given a ticket. Now, generally speaking, I will guarantee that this these tickets have been thrown away. But I have my tickets. Here is my ticket to invasion. This is this to me is is something that has, is not only precious to me but I think historically in the context of time, a hundred years from now, two hundred years from now, it will be a very valuable thing to see what kind of a ticket was actually issued to an individual and said, Here's your get on the plane now and fly to Europe. And so you then go through all the training. The 11:30, 21st of March, 1944. [ ] Sergeant called from Air Transport Command and said we were leaving at 16:15 the same day. And so this man that I went with...we packed, we were briefed, we had our medical records filed, filled out. And at 4:15 we checked into hanger number six. You get the detail of all of this, you see. It's down. It's a matter of record. And that record is the basis of true history. It's not guess work about (what) happened; this is the real thing. And so the captain at the National Airport briefed us on in an upstairs room. There's nothing to worry about, he said, as he told us about the life raft, Mae West, radio, etc. And then a doctor told us how to take care of our fractured bones and ulterior bleeding. There's nothing to worry about, but, boy, was there there was plenty to worry about.

ST:

What is Mae West?

AG:

Hmm?

ST:

Is that the actress?

AG:

No. The actress, yeah. And the Mae West would be the thing that you put around your body.

ST:

That was called the Mae West?

AG:

It was called the Mae West. This...this is a good question. I would assume that you know. But you...but no...the Mae West Mae West was the...the life preserver that you put around your body. Mae West, of course, was the woman who had big big breast and so anything that bulged was a Mae West.

ST:

Anything that bulged.

AG:

Right. And this actually is the book that was prepare for [water landing]. Now, how many of these things do you suppose have survived the war? But here it is. Here's the thing that we were actually given. And I think I...I've written here: Left national airport, Washington, 20 March, 17:15. Um...Yeah, here it is. Arrived in New York, Boston Boston arrived. [Stephenville,] New Finland at 23:45. Left at 15:30 and arrived in New Finland on the 22 of March. And so, here's the dates, so on. Here again the humor of... here is Major [Burke], my boss, who is being sent over. And I was in a way his sort of valet. He was a very strange man. A great guy. I loved him dearly, but he was an eccentric and he was always giving me things to carry, and so on. So I became his water boy. And here was the plane. And the description of the flight. This is called a...a short snorter. It was the habit, the...Everybody on board a plane would take out a dollar bill and everybody on the plane would sign it. So that became the order of the short snorter. So all of these signatures were the signatures of the men that were on that plane with me. And this is probably the only short snorter bill in existence today. I guarantee there will not be anything like that.

ST:

Do you where it got, what the name means?

AG:

I have no idea. The passengers sign this spear-head dollar good in Africa only. But Major [Burke] yelled foul. He claimed you have to fly the ocean to belong. You have to fly the ocean to belong to the...short snorter order. Uh...

ST:

Has every girl who dates...

AG:

Well, [ ] who really know said that every girl who dates an ATC man, that would be an Air Transport Command man, owns a short snorter roll as long as your arm even if she was never any closer to the ocean than Brooklyn. Anyway, that's short snorter. What's...this is money. I don't know what that money means. But this is our arrival. For instance, this is, I think, interesting. A bus took us to a large clean mess where, slow but [wily], New Finland's girls brought us eggs, toast, bacon, jam, and coffee. Um...

ST:

Is that you?

AG:

Uh...No, that probably would be somebody else. No. I don't know who that is. Here is the bacon and eggs. There's probably a reference to it. Oh, I got a short haircut from barber...yeah, this is me. I got a short haircut from the barber [ ] in the PX next morning. And started collecting foreign coins. This is a foreign coin. Bought candy at the PX which sold everything from yesterdays Times to a 56 dollar portable radio. So you see, it's the detail. And here, looking out at the porthole of the plane and all the way through. It's a minute by minute, day by, hour by hour account. The [Concert] Hotel [ ] in Iceland. We came, we came down...The planes of that time could not fly from the United States to England. They had to put down at a great many places on-route. And so this was a picture of a [ ]. Do you know what a [ ] is? A metal hut made, prefabricated buildings made out of corrugated metal. At this moment it is11:25 and we are driving towards Scotland which Burke is [hogging] the window and [ ] is down below, and so on and so on. And here we get to we get to England, [ ], and Scotland. And here, by god, here is the terminal [miss] where leek and potato soup and beef steak, mince, or ham...Pretty good food, by the way, I would say for a country that was at war. But here is the menu. And you see there again the importance of saving this material because historically I think it becomes a very meaningful. And it's really, it's nearly exactly, it's now exactly midnight, March 24th and the sirens are blowing. This is my first raid, first air raid in London. So immediately a transferred from the United States into a situation where the air raids are blowing and the planes are dropping bombs. So, immediately you're in a situation where you are being, you're in war. City is grey and shabby. Boarded up stores, empty streets. And...I don't know why I'm always fascinated with toilet paper, but this is exactly an example of wartime...

ST:

That's the toilet paper? Looks like...

AG:

...toilet paper.

ST:

...real paper.

AG:

Yeah, it is. Yeah. Sample of wartime toilet paper and there's plenty of it but not according to...yeah. My first English girlfriend, Peggy. Her name was Peggy [Halls- ]. But people miss most, she said, are chocolate ice cream, milk shakes, gooey desserts, chewing gum, cosmetics, and nail polish, and matches. These are...Uh, this is very interesting. In a very good restaurant they still have waiters and silver trays, and so on. But when they open the, when they lift the lid off it there's just a very, very small amount of food. 'Cause everything was everything was being rationed.

ST:

This really looks like a grocery bag, like a paper bag...

AG:

Yeah.

ST:

...that they wrap things in.

AG:

Yeah, right, yeah. This is very interesting to me...London was covered with these with these balloons to prevent German airplanes coming down and strafing, machine-gunning the streets. So this was their method of keeping the air...the German airplanes up in the air rather than...

ST:

These are...balloons.

AG:

They're balloons. Yeah.

ST:

Were they effective?

AG:

Yes, I would say so because the Germans could not come, they couldn't come close to the ground because they would be tripped by these metal wires. The point is, they didn't need to do that because they weren't their to strafe, to machine-gun the people in the streets. What they were there for was to drop bombs and say...They did that from much greater heights. So these balloons were really not very effective in that regard. And then here you find yourself immediately in a wartime situation and everybody saluting. The first...very first night we were bombarded. And here, this these would be the anti-aircraft shells exploding in the air. Waves of bombers converged on London from the northeast. Rockets batteries were thunderously in action. So again, sketching and clippings and writing...Get all this down. This I think is very important - little document. Army exchange ration card. Everybody was given, all of us new people were given these ration cards. And this is my ration card which entitled you to seven packs of cigarettes,...two boxes of matches, two candy bars, one package of gum or lifesaver, one package of cookies, one bar of soap, and two razor blades. So you see, how many of these things do you think would exists today? But this exists because of the...

ST:

How long did that have to last you?

AG:

A week. That would be a week or a month...Yeah, no, it would be February 14 to April 9. February, March...that would be two months.

ST:

One bar of soap.

AG:

Yeah.

ST:

Wow.

AG:

Yeah. Right. Yeah. And then some of the little vignettes of life in London. The reports of...planes shot down. Here is the reference, first reference to a secret weapon. A rocket gun is across the channel [ ] blast London. That would be the first of the bombs that the Germans were using. They didn't need planes. They would shoot these bombs over from guns on the, in France and Belgium.

ST:

What is this?

AG:

That would be [sign]...Yeah, this is a map of American [Red] Cross map of London with all of the things that we needed to know about - the officers club and the, whatever it was, rainbow...And these are some of the signs. If you take it you must eat it. Coupon reduction for austerity clothing. Please bring your own wrapping. No whiskey, no gin, no rum. Shops for...well...Metropolitan [water ] earnestly appeal that all consumers to save water. Remember the five inch bath. No running taps, no dripping taps. Water economy means fuel economy. Secret weapon. There may or not be a secret weapon, but the use of gas by the enemy is always possible. Call at your air raid...something or other, first to fourteenth of January, and have your gas mask inspected. For sale: woolen frock with ice top and black shirt. Full size. Two pounds. Little signs of...again, human evidence, and so on. Again, more people, almost everybody in uniform.

ST:

Even...is this a child?

AG:

It's a little boy, yeah. He's not in uniform, but everybody else is. And here would be the...oh, this is very important. The people were sleeping in the subway, in subways. They had all these racks for people to sleep in. And night after night this is where the people were coming to avoid the German bombing.

ST:

And the theaters were still going on?

AG:

The theaters were still going on. And here is a whole list of the opera and the ballet. And you could spend a lot of time reading this...but...[ ]...You can see The Merchant of Venice was playing, something called Salute the Soldier, Arsenic and Old Lace. Do you ever hear of that? ST: [yes] AG: ...The Lover [ ], An Ideal Husband, A Soldier for Christmas, Love for Love, Something for the Boys...You can see what the entertainment things were. Then this would be, yeah, this would be the [ ] information for officers newly arrived in London - where we had to go to get our place to live. That would be the mess. The mess would be where we ate and...and food ration cards, and so on. But again a hunk of history. ST: What is this? Oops. AG: This is a little sketch of the blackout. The blackout was filled with all kinds of mysterious things. The men and women making love, and a man urinating, and a prostitute picking up customers. This would be the only thing we had in the way of light. It would be something completely dark except for a little slit which would emit a little bit of light. But the rest of it was all dark. But this I think is really very significant and it really, there's something very mysterious and something very beautiful about a blackout. The whole city without any light. And so all sorts of things were going on in the dark.

ST:

People urinating...hugging.

AG:

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. This [ ] a cartoon on Anglo-American relations. We, American soldiers had a lot of money as compared with the British and so we were taking all their girls away. And that was getting them very, very angry. Now here is something that I did and did again and again. I became a private. I was a captain by this time but I became a private. And I joined the first infantry division and underwent, and spent several weeks learning what it was like to be...

ST:

What is this picture of?

AG:

That would be a picture of me being drilled by a sergeant who's very angry at me because I was a very bad, very bad (soldier). I...it had been a long time since I'd done the manual arms and so he couldn't understand how can you be so stupid as not to be able to do these things. Every other soldier that comes over is...can do manual, the manual of arms that I couldn't because I hadn't done it for maybe six months, and so on. So that this is my identification card as a private.

ST:

You had to carry that everywhere with you?

AG:

You had to carry that...Yeah, right. And that was...

ST:

Did you have a similar card as an officer?

AG:

Oh, sure. Well as an officer I had all my credentials. But know officer...I think I was the only officer in the entire American army who again and again and again became a private. I was always demoting myself in order to learn what is was like to be a private. And on the basis of my experience with the first infantry division I was able to do all the things that happened subsequently - the army talks and other things that came about. And so I, so I become a soldier with the first infantry division in places like [ ], and so on, [ ]. Yeah. Then I then I come into my [ ] in the first infantry division and I run into Betty Grable again on a cigarette ad. So round, so firm, so fully packed, so free and easy on the [draw]. And Betty Grable being used as the basis of every...Now here is something. Now listen to this. Have you...this is a letter from Major General Huebner, who was the chief of training of the United States army and he was now commanding the most important division in the army - the first infantry division. And he writes to me, This is the 27 of March. Captain Goodfriend. So on...My dear Arthur, Your photographic study on how to read a map, which was so carefully autographed for me, was received. I sent it home to be place with my mementos of this war. I think that one of the finest things that ever happened to me was in discovering you and your ability and if you ever do any more or not I want you to know that in my opinion you have contributed as much to the training of our army as anyone individual I know of. And the photographic portfolio will undoubtedly find its place among the training aids of all military and civilian installations. Now what more...getting back to your question...yeah, I [ ] this makes me realize that I was fulfilling a duty, a responsibility, doing it very, so effectively to this man who was in charge of the whole operation would send me a letter that says the best that ever happened to him was disco(vering), was finding me. Yes, I'm very touched by that. But then to revert, today fifty years later, I have second thoughts about the about the whole thing. So...the book goes on. It becomes a record of all that developed.

ST:

What is this? This is when you get into...

AG:

This would be these, this would be the big red one...Yeah, this would be a [bull] session where one of the veterans would get up and tell the newcomers what it was like to be in Africa when they were actually fighting the Germans. So this man was able to talk to us about what they, answer our questions about the enemy and how to survive and come out of this thing without being killed. This was a sketch of Huebner. This is these this is my secretary - she's a marvelous woman. She became my secretary in London. Whitman became part of my staff. I was made the head of Army Talks and these are the people that were...And here is the office on upper Brooks street. Here's [ ] at a typewriter and there is Whitman writing, and so on. And here would be the mess of, the Dorchester mess and the hotel with everybody lining for food. And then my get my starting to work on army on army talks. And then, and then becoming the editor of The Stars and Stripes. And starting up a new paper called, a supplement called War Week.

ST:

What was that?

AG:

War Week was a supplement that dealt with combat information as we got it from the front instead of...Well there was no other way of getting to the troops except through the newspaper. But it wasn't until I became the editor that I thought of of having a supplement every week called War Week in which all the lessons that we learned about about the, from the front lines, we could immediately communicate. And it was a very important educational [ ]...Get the word education. It comes up again and again. This was a this is realistic education. This soldiers had to learn these things. Their lives depended on it. And these guys up in the front were being killed as a result of mistakes that were being made. And we were then able to, in War Week to...

ST:

They were worried about spies and...

AG:

That's right. All those things. Right, yeah. Then I went to the the Russian Embassy and there were a whole bunch of Russian soldiers there who had been wounded and sent to London sort of to compensate for their earlier duty. And so I interviewed them, and they told me how they had killed Germans. But get the emphasis on kill, kill, kill. And then another blackout picture. And the, yeah, an air raid at the, in the, while I was at the [ ] hotel in London. And what a terrible thing it is to be lying in bed and the whole city crashing around you and catching fire. And the results of the bombing in London. Many of the buildings being destroyed. Now what is this. Oh, this is Eisenhower's orders to the troops: You're about to embark on a great crusade. This was the original message to the troops before the invasion. And then came D-day. Tuesday, June 6, 1944, Normandy. And then I go over then I go over I, on [D plus 4]. I, I'm...this is a sketch, I think this is a very important sketch of troops marching down past all of the the equipment, boxes of supplies, and so on, getting on board this Danish freight [ ] and going off to Normandy. Now, did I get, did I show you this, did you, have you ever seen this before?

ST:

No, I don't think so.

AG:

Well, this is very important. This is The New York Times' article in August. It's written, it's called "Education In Review." The army after several experiments finds a way to interest [instruct] soldiers. Now get this. Early, Washington, August 26. Early last winter, a specially picked officer, a high specialist in his field, went to Great Britain. There he stripped off his commission insignia, [ ] government issue, and thereafter spent several weeks as a replacement private in various army organizations. The report by this officer confirmed that ground level of what had been observed in many other theaters, war theaters, that despite morale work in various forms, too many of the soldiers did not know what the war was about, many wondered why they were involved it, and some considerable fraction had none of the enthusiasm necessary to participate and survived in the great test of the invasions to come. This research marked the beginning of a successful quest that has developed finally into a simple program that appears to be achieving its ultimate objective - to make men want to know something about the world in which they are fighting, in which they must carve out their futures. Such work will always be limited by the varying degrees of imagination response common to human beings. But at least the system is working much to the gratification of Major General Frederick Osborne who was given this job of morale by by General Marshall. Now, now get this. Um. The European Theater of Operation...ETO is the European Theater of Operation...here in the five weeks of May immediately preceding D-day, June 6th, the army tried out its new technique. Oh...uh..the as yet nameless officer, that's me, who went to England opened the door to a, to new methods...each [ ] the European Theater of Operation. Here are the five weeks of [May]. Immediately receiving D-day, June 6th, the army tried out its new technique and supplied the service papers with interesting, readable, and illustrated articles on what the war was about and what we('re) supposed to do about it. But the happiest feature of the work was the issuance of five weekly talks to be given by platoon commanders to their men. Sixty thousand of these talks were distributed every week and they hit the nail on the head. The talks started on May 3rd with the pamphlet giving the discussion basis under the title The Enemy in You. Here was an understandable description of the Nazi soldiers' training and background and indoctrination. Are you recording this by the way? Oh, it is...wow. The other talks in subsequent weeks are as follows: May 10th - These Guys Fought Them, May 17th - Mein Kampf, May 24 - How Russians Kill Germans. Um, here was the hit of the of the series, actual quotations from interviews with the Russian veterans simply told. One was a description of how to take a house held by the enemy. [ ], May 31, [ ], attention to you. Here was the final summary of the last word. These army talks by their responses set the pattern for what is being done now and will be continued throughout both the war and the long period repairing soldiers to return to civil life. Um...Well, this again answers your question - do I feel, how do I feel about what I did? Well when I read a thing like this, that I changed the whole thing around in the month before invasion. The whole thing went through a radical transformation from from stuff that the soldiers didn't care about, weren't interested in, to things that really saved their lives. I feel enormously, an enormous sense of satisfaction having been able to do this. I mean, here I was, just a little guy, just from civilian life, and changed the whole approach of the United States Army as it moved toward the toward the invasion. Yeah, I feel feel great about it. But on the other hand, in retrospect, I realize what a terrible thing it is that I had to do a thing like that in the context of the crisis that we were in. And so I arrive and we, and here we are going through Normandy handing out the first edition of The Stars and Stripes on Omaha Beach. And and then we were attacked by, my first personal attack by a German plane in [ ], which is the first city we liberated. And then cowering behind a wall as the as we were being fired on by this German plane. And here's a map of Normandy. And here I am with the first German tanks that we, that were captured. Here I am...oh...I was taking a bath. The way you took a bath was you'd fill your helmet with hot water and strip down and bathe in this water. While I was doing this, the house that I was taking the bath in was bombed by the Germans. And there I was without any clothes on washing, trying to wash myself. (pause in tape - probably a tape switch in the original tape recording) Here was a very, very funny little incident. Are you, are you on...are we on wire? Yes, right. Uh...We just arrived in Normandy. My general came over to join me and and he got a jeep and we started to drive through the battle area. And we came on stores that were burning. They had been destroyed by the battle. And in these windows of these stores were great big piles of cheese because Normandy was a great source of [fromage], of French cheese. And he was going back to England the next day so he said Arthur stop the jeep. I want to pick up some of that cheese and take it home with me. So we got piles and piles of this French, smelly French fromage. And he and that night we were camping out in a long rows of tent where the troops were sleeping. And every once in awhile there would be a latrine. You know what a latrine is?

ST:

(Yes.)

AG:

Well...we had the problem of what to do with this cheese. And so the general, we dug a little ditch and we put the cheese in the ditch so it would be preserved overnight. It wouldn't turn bad. And then in the morning he would retrieve this and take it back to England with him. Well anyway...at night there was, everything was dark. And all the men came down looking for the latrine and they were attracted by the smell of the French cheese. And so when...when next morning when he had to get his cheese, it was just covered with all of the...

ST:

Oooh. Yuck.

AG:

Yuck is right. I'm sorry about this story but I think it's very, very funny.

ST:

Oh, yeah, it's funny.

AG:

I think it is very, very funny. But that's what happened. So let me get to Paris. And here is the picture of me and and here's my General [ ] setting up The Stars and Stripes in Paris. It's always interesting to see what I looked like in those days. How change and, with time. And here again...here's some of the men in my outfit. And here I am in St. Mere duMort which was (the) second city that we captured. And then I started writing these editorials in...I became the editor of The Stars and Stripes and started writing the editorial. Here's pictures of me and the destruction of Normandy. Here's my general - To my good friend Goodfriend with...[ ]. Here was a terrible thing. The dead Germans; their bodies turning green. And we didn't have time to bury them. So they just lay there day after day in the hot sun and turning greener and greener and smellier and smellier. And the dead horses... Death is a terrible thing on the battlefield. We were also being attacked by these yellow-jackets. Every time we opened up our K-rations, these gnats, these jack...these yellow-jackets, bees would come in and sting us. That was another little inconvenience of being a soldier of the field. Yeah, this was...this little example of what the streets looked like. St. Mary[ ] and this is [ ]. That was the first city that we captured.

ST:

Looks desolate.

AG:

Now this is interesting. We liberated an orphanage in St. Mary[ ]. And here I am with these these orphan kids on my lap. Here's Colonel Burke, by that time, and...Isn't it interesting to see these kids? I would love to go back and see what they've all grown up to be. There, these little girls are now 60 years old. Yeah...what is this? Yeah, these are my first orders as I became the editor, these are my orders to the staff. And here I am as the editor of the...Here is one of the most gruesome things that happened. Again, becoming a private and going up to the front, passing German soldiers in jeeps that had been caught under the American barrage. And the shrapnel would come down...This is a terrible thing Shari. Maybe you shouldn't be looking at this. Shrapnel would come down and slice a man right down this way so there's half the man with his uniform on and the other half of him was nothing but bones and blood. This was done like a surgeon with a scalpel. Beautiful, just absolutely a beautiful cut. Nothing jagged or anything. Just slashing down of this piece of metal - just cut this man is half. And there he was - half of him exactly as he was and the other half exposing his entrails.

ST:

And there's no time to do anything about the bodies.

AG:

Oh, no, we couldn't stop it. Everybody was moving forward as fast as they possibly could. So somebody along the line would have to come back and do something about it. But it wasn't only, you know I've often wondered about this...it wasn't only human beings that were being killed. The Germans were so very reliant on horses. And when these horses were killed, what the devil did you do with these horses. Lying in the sun, the stench was just unbelievable. And then somebody had to come along later on and did holes in the ground that could bury not only the men but the horses. Some of the men [ ]. Yeah, the dead the dead soldiers of a hundred and first airborn division just lined up. Hundreds of them...first German prisoners of wars, prisoners of war in [ ]. A German soldier, a German prisoner, aboard a plane that I was flying on. And then then I went to...we won't go into all of that. Let's see now. This would be...oh yeah, I met Ernest Hemmingway and Helen Kirkpatrick in in [Mont ]. That's what this is about. [Mont ] is a very famous place. But Madame [Pu ] was famous for egg omelets and met Ernest Hemmingway and Helen Kirkpatrick...

JY:

What were they doing there?

AG:

Eating, eating omelets. And here we are in...yeah, and here, let's see...I have...[ ] I have Helen's signature but I don't...oh, yeah, here's Ernest Hemmingway's signature. Here is my tent in in...somewhere in Normandy. What is this? Yeah, this is a German... a German...yeah, this is something a German soldier's were given to tell them about the American tanks. Here is...this is, right, something I...being in the field hospital seeing the soldiers operating on men. Just being carried in out...an assembly line of surgery. Here's The Stars and Stripes... ...an assembly line of surgery. Here's The Stars and Stripes in the field. Here's General Patton. Here is the very, very first newspaper that we put out. A mimeograph sheet. Can you be...can you visualize this? The...the order of the day by Eisenhower, August 14th. And we...the only way to get this information was to get a mimeograph machine and turn it out on a mimeograph machine. Here's an example of what I was talking about a little while ago: dead...the dead dead soldiers and dead horses. The...on a lovely summer's day the smell - just absolutely awful. And the, sorry about this Shari, but you know the guts of these men and animals spilling out all over the place. What bombs will do to human flesh. Then I became...I had a jeep and I was driving through what was known as the...the [Argentomfallies] gap. The Germans...there was a gap between the between the...surrounding the Germans and I...and ignorantly I didn't know what I was doing. I drove right through the middle of this gap and was surrounded by Germans soldiers. I was alone in this jeep, surrounded by German soldiers, and instead of their capturing me, which they could have very easily done, they were getting on their knees and begging me to capture them. So I became the, I became a hero overnight by getting all of these soldiers into my jeep and taking them back and turning in these prisoners of war. I thought it was really very funny, but I was scared to death. Can you imagine being surrounded by Germans and then it turns out that they were surrendering to me rather than my being surrendered to them? And here we capture a whole German division at [ ]. And here are the first pictures of the, these German soldiers being marched off in captivity. And then on the way to Paris throwing out chewing gum - any gum [ ], chocolates - to the French kids. And then entering Paris and the city going...the city going mad. This is, again I was a private infantry soldier and going up into combat. And on the way the Catholic boys are all dropping out of line to, for a last prayer before we went into combat. This is on a very grey rainy day and it was very, very gloomy. I was very much, very much touched by these kneeling soldiers as the priest was praying. And there they were getting up and then going off into going off into...into combat. And then I become a soldier...As a rifleman I'm on sentry at the front hiding behind a dead cow at night. And, yeah, here I am going up toward the front. A rifleman replacement. And then I'm assigned the duty of...the others went down to a basement to sleep and I was assigned the job of being a sentry and lying all night behind a dead cow. And then going into combat the next day in the snow and having a terrible time because I really was not in good shape. You know, as a, I was not a...you know...trained for this. By this time I was really...a Parisian soldier. But going through the snow knee deep and falling down and not being able to get up and then finally capturing this little town of [Consen]. And then the same thing happening in the battle of the bulge. Here was the [Bast ] in the distance on fire and we were marching up toward it in the snow. Walking in the snow under heavy equipment is very, very difficult.

ST:

What kind of equipment did you have to carry?

AG:

Everything. Everything you needed. You...not only your clothing, but then you had gas mask and your rations and your grenades and all of the ammunition belts and something like 80, 90 pounds of equipment. And then your rifle, which weighed another 10 pounds. I was just a little guy and it was a terrible thing to...snow up to my knees, up to my waist. And it was very difficult for me to...

ST:

Did you paint that after the march was done or...

AG:

Oh, yeah. It was done, that would be done. I couldn't do it while I was...all this would be have to be done when I had a little time and a place to do it. And then we liberated in [ ], we liberated American soldiers who had been captured and, captured a hundred days before and this was their condition. They were all starving to death after a hundred days of capture. And then we killed, we killed them by giving them rations, which they ate and they couldn't digest it and so they died. And we were, until they stopped us from doing that we didn't realize what we were doing. But these soldiers hadn't eaten for 90 days or a hundred days; they couldn't digest food. And then the telephone call from [REMS] that the Nazis had surrendered. And so then I began a new newspaper, a new supplement called Tomorrow, getting the soldiers ready to go home. And then came that fabulous picture of the of the flag being raised over Suribachi and Iwo Jima. And that got me into big trouble because I gave this a full page in The New...in The Stripe. Here I am being interviewed or interview, being interviewed by Eisenhower. Here's Kay Summerby, Summersby - the secretary behind the a... behind him. And he always in the dark with just one light and...

ST:

Why was that?

AG:

Why was that? That's the way he liked to work. He liked to work in the dark with just one little bit of illumination so that he could see what he was doing. But that's the way he, that's the way he liked to work. So that's where I...met Eisenhower. And then liberating the first of the camps, Dachau, which, a very poor picture, but on the other hand it shows my confusion and my and my sense of inability to capture this thing. And these corpses being hauled off by horse drawn wagons. Just dumped on. And awful, awful, awful. Then a train came in to Dachau loaded with these mummies. Hundreds of people who hadn't eaten, who had just absolutely starved to death. And I'll never forget this guy a...Here I am watching as a man somehow comes out to take a shower. And he's so weak that when the water comes on him it knocks him down. He couldn't stand the couldn't stand the impact by the water. That's the moment of great regret. It didn't occur to me to go over there and help him get up and take him, help him. I was so astonished by this awful sight that all I did was stand there and gape just like a, like a idiot.

ST:

Must have been paralyzed in horror.

AG:

Yeah. How did it happen? What...so on. Uh, well here I am wondering how did it happen? What has it been all about? And that's the question we're trying to answer now. Here's another letter from Huebner. A very cordial letter. He had heard that I... that, uh...I sent him copies of the history of the First Division which The Stars and Stripes...and he says, Thanks for fine job. And then he says, I'm sorry if somebody informed you that I was displeased with your work as editor of The Stars and Stripes. I think you're doing a very fine job and you're certainly pointing out [ ], that's who it's written for. And then we had a big meeting with the Russians. We met the Russians coming from the east. In [T ] there's a great big celebration which I attended. The guess, the first Ukrainian army group, [ ] and all of his staff. And I was with the twelfth army group - General Bradley. And so I attended the first meeting of the Russians and the and the Americans. And then we had...we had [ ] playing to entertain the Russians but he refused to play the violin because he didn't want to be with Mickey Rooney. He was doing some sort of a routine. And so we had to separate them - [ ] played the music in one place and Mickey Rooney did his little act somewhere else. And then the cemeteries burying, picking up and burying the dead. And then Neuremburg where I was with the...here I am in Neuremburg. I don't know what that is. And, and then I wrote an article, again, this is now or never. Not nations but individuals for fashion the destiny of the world, of mankind. And that really is in a way what we've been talking about this morning in this side road down. I don't want to read the whole thing but it was just unless we change our our educational system, individuals will lend themselves to situations that...not solvable by any other means but war. And so I get, I'm, I get the legion of merit. And here's the citation for that. It's the highest highest medal you can get outside of the outside of the legion of honor, medal of honor. And here I am ordered to...German's surrendered and I'm ordered to go to China and Japan. And so here I am in in Shanghai setting up The Stars and Stripes in Shanghai. Here I am in Shanghai with a very good friend of mine, [ ], who has died. She was the editor of Gourmet Magazine. Remember (what) Gourmet Magazine is?

ST:

Yeah.

AG:

She was the editor of Gourmet Magazine. And here I am in Shanghai. And I think that's pretty much, pretty much the...Oh, then we ran a campaign of books for the kids of China. Here I am collecting money and smoking a cigarette. So this is Ticket to Invasion. Now...Oh here's my...I am promoted, Goodfriend promotion. Here is the order. I become a lieutenant colonel. So that winds it up. I become a colonel and that's that.

(tape stopped and started again)

Here is the Ticket to Invasion. Wow!

ST:

Wow.

AG:

[ ] the war.

ST:

[ ] the war.

(tape stopped and started again)

AG:

How did I feel about it then, how do I feel about it now? And this duality, which I think is natural, logical and I don't feel badly about the fact that I did what I did. But I'm aware now of what, how easy it is to become an animal that wants to kill.

JY:

Survival right?

AG:

Survival becomes becomes your...

JY:

How do you stay sane in an environment like that?

AG:

You don't. I think...the situation like that you are not really...every...you wait for every bit of news that will come in. Have you won, have you beaten them, or are they beaten us. Are we in danger? I'll never forget in Paris where the Germans counter-attacked all of a sudden where everybody's having a wonderful time all of a sudden, wow. Fear set in. And at night we could here machine-guns firing. And everybody instead of walking around was cowered and darting from doorway to doorway and how immediately your whole chemistry, your whole metabolism changes. It becomes very self-protective. You can feel the changes in your bloodstream. Your, you become tense and you change. The minute you feel in danger you react in a very different way. One moment you're maybe sitting down at a sidewalk cafe having a cup of...having a beer and the next minute you're...like that.

JY:

Did you see people changing and or going crazy or...?

AG:

Well we did have a lot of people. I mean, to be...I don't understand how a soldier could really stay in the front line for weeks at a time and not go crazy because you can't imagine the filth of it all, the...especially in the winter time with the snow and the mud and unable to bathe, soaking wet, getting trench foot, your feet freezing, and going on day after day after day. It was just...I would do it for a week and I would come out of it in terrible shape. These...because they were much younger than I. I was [ ] forty years old. Yeah. And 18, 19, 20 year old guy can take it more than I could but I don't see how they could...It's remarkable what human beings will will do when they have to do it.

ST:

There's the question of what it does to you afterwards as well.

AG:

Yeah.

ST:

How do you survive the memories?

AG:

That's right. Well, of course then you have what they call...traumatic shock. Seems to be a big thing after the Gulf war. But the, I think the veterans' hospitals are filled with men who never recovered from from the war.

JY:

Is...is there any preparation for that?

AG:

Well the closest thing to preparation were things like Army Talks and the other things we were putting out. It was trying somehow to give them information that they needed. But all the information in the world is not going to make a bit of difference when it comes to the reality of...well, just to give you one example. What I would do...I would go back to the beaches at Omaha Beach as a rifle replacement. The front line was already in Germany. I would go there and become a private and then be transferred from the beach all the way across France to the front line in Germany. By the time I... that would take three or four days and nights. There would be three or four days and nights of practically nothing to eat except K-rations jammed on a...on a truck with twenty other guys and ammunition and supplies...No where to budge. Every couples of hours stopping for what they called the [P ] so at least you could urinate. But most of the time you couldn't even do that. The place, you know, becoming very, very foul, and so on. Sleeping in the rain under a pup tent or whatever you could throw up over yourself. By the time you got to the front line and were assigned to your unit you were half dead. And then you somehow...you joined your outfit and then you had to revive yourself. Or what happened to me was, the very first night I got to this particular outfit, they sent me outside on sentry duty. Why did they do that? Because they were all, they had been in combat, they were very tired, they figured here comes the new guy - he can take it. We deserve a rest. So I get assigned this [ ]. But I, myself, are already in very, very bad shape because we've had to endure this this long trip to the front line. It's a horrible thing. It's, people don't realize what an awful thing it is to be a soldier. But there's something in human beings, especially when they're young, that make them resilient and they are basically in good shape. They have been training for this a long time. My problem was that I was not in training. I was in I as was living a relatively good life in Paris sleeping in a clean bed and eating good food. And then all of a sudden being transferred from that into K-rations and into mud and slops, and so on. I was much more vulnerable to the negative consequences then the others were. But I could leave at the end of a week or two weeks. I never stayed two weeks...a week or 10 days and then I would release myself and come back. But they were stuck and have to go on and on.

JY:

What kind of advice would you give to someone going into the service?

AG:

Don't.

ST:

That's a good place to end.

[END]

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